Hanif Abdurraqib and Anthony Thomas Lombardi on the Importance of Artistic Community

I was thrilled to get immoderate clip to speech to Anthony Thomas Lombardi about murmurations, mostly due to the fact that I spot things successful this publication that I’m truthful incredibly drawn to wrong my ain work. Namely, there’s a comfortableness with obsession, a comfortableness with staying successful 1 spot and not seeking answers, oregon seeking a mode out. I felt similar I was some looking into a benignant of warped reflector of my ain excitements and obsessions and besides inactive learning from what the reflection was telling me. 

It was breathtaking for maine to beryllium and prime the encephalon of this writer who, similar me, has moving people origins, who came up successful a mode that galore would call, quote, “untraditional,” but I deliberation that’s foolish. The contented that we some came up successful is 1 of self-made community, a contented of unfastened mics and poesy slams, and passing printouts of poems crossed a country to idiosyncratic who liked them. And I deliberation that contented is much utile than any. 

I emotion this book, too, for however richly it is populated. It’s bursting not lone with brilliance, and ceremonial inventiveness, but besides with a existent consciousness of attraction for everyone who has a voice, oregon a assemblage successful the work. To constitute successful this mode suggests a existent tender narration with a satellite that often does not merit it, and I deliberation that is worthy learning from, too.

Hanif Abdurraqib: It’s been truthful agelong since I enactment retired my archetypal book, I’m wondering what the process has been similar and what it’s felt similar and however agelong you consciousness similar you’ve been moving connected the book. 

Anthony Thomas Lombardi: I consciousness similar I’ve been moving connected the publication my full life. I see erstwhile I got sober, 10 years ago, arsenic the existent embryonic signifier of the book. I wouldn’t person been capable to constitute the publication if I wasn’t processing each of that. I retrieve telling my analyst, who I’ve been moving with for a decennary now, I’m acceptable to archer my story!  Before that, I was achromatic knuckling life. I was moving successful a barroom the time aft I got retired of detox, I was successful an abusive relationship. But penning isn’t lone putting fingers to the keyboard oregon pen to paper. We’re ever writing—we’re penning close now.  

The archetypal poem I wrote for the publication was the closing “self-portrait arsenic murmuration” successful 2019. At that point, I was being taken nether the helping of Hala Alyan. Pretty overmuch this full publication was written successful her backyard astatine Kan Yama Kan’s unfastened mics, her speechmaking series, alongside my procreation of poets, my community, [where] we’re each speechmaking astatine these unfastened mics and cutting our teeth and penning our poems. Now we each person books retired oregon coming out, and they’re books that we each wrote astatine that unfastened mic, successful Hala’s backyard. 

I got my publication woody with YesYes successful 2023, and it’s been specified a drawn retired process. KMA Sullivan is specified a loving, tender editor, and archetypal circular draught edits took six months—they notation to my publication arsenic “the brick” there, it’s specified a large book. I’m navigating each of this present arsenic a debut writer astatine the property of thirty-six.

HA: It’s funny, I was possibly thirty-two. Everyone has each these platitudes astir writers who began their careers “late” and that’s meant to placate folks, but sometimes you’re determination already and the work’s conscionable arriving to you. My archetypal publication came overmuch aboriginal [than different people’s], and I spent a batch of clip successful poesy slams not truly wanting to constitute a book. I deliberation it’s absorbing to unrecorded that agelong and cognize erstwhile you person a publication oregon cognize erstwhile it’s ready. 

You accidental the enactment of the publication began erstwhile you got sober. I’m wondering if there’s immoderate portion successful the publication wherever you spot a enactment of demarcation betwixt the themes that you were funny successful oregon excited about. Maybe not now, but successful the drafting process was determination a constituent wherever you were like, oh, I’m approaching the enactment differently oregon my interests oregon segments person changed? 

ATL: All these musicians successful the publication who are nary longer with us, they’re that throughline. Most of them are jazz musicians, which is simply a headspace I find myself successful often, for immoderate reason. They became this chorus of dormant folks that I emotion and revere. How could they not travel retired successful my work? From the beginning, it each feels similar it was specified a storm, I had each these poems and didn’t cognize what to bash with them. All I had was the unsmooth thought of the stepwork poems, structurally, but that was it. In 2021, I won a fellowship with the Poetry Project based connected a illustration of my manuscript and Celina Su was my mentor. She came up with ideas astir what poems spell where, which poems spell with which step. It was Celina who pushed maine to enactment unneurotic the steps arsenic much of an affectional compass successful recovery, the messiness of it all. That was the large breakthrough. I springiness each recognition to her for that. After that, it didn’t truly alteration much.

How did you travel astir to penning a publication of poesy if you didn’t wanna constitute a book?

HA: I got asked to taxable immoderate poems to Button Poetry’s chapbook contention successful 2014, and I had possibly 12 poems that were orbiting a theme. I deliberation Button saw thing successful [them] and asked if I’d beryllium funny successful making a afloat magnitude publication retired of it. 

One happening that’s a shame is that determination aren’t a batch of ways for young poets specifically to stumble into books successful that aforesaid way. I speech to young poets often who privation to get their books successful beforehand of people, but they can’t bash it without paying exorbitant fees for aggregate contests oregon sending poems retired and waiting for them to scope someone. One happening astir the immediacy of slam that I truly loved was that your enactment was getting heard, and if it moved someone, they would inquire you for much of it. Some of my favourite poems successful the satellite are poems that radical conscionable emailed to maine due to the fact that I heard them successful a slam and wanted to spot the poem connected the page.

ATL: Some of my closest friendships started that way. Like, will you email that poem to me? I request it.  My friend, Malik Crumpler, I met him successful Paris astatine an unfastened mic helium was MCing. His vigor was intoxicating, truthful I decided to read. One of the poems I work was “self-portrait arsenic murmuration” and Malik slipped maine a tiny portion of insubstantial that said, I privation them poems. He’s an exertion connected apical of everything other helium does, and though the poems were already getting published, it opened that door. We conscionable started talking similar maniacs, you couldn’t pry america apart. He was truly funny successful what I was doing, we knew each the aforesaid people, we’re some vocal successful our enactment astir being sober. These kinds of relationships commencement with the poems but spell past them.

That’s the benignant of communal happening I deliberation is not happening, oregon happening less. After quarantines and the messes that we’ve dealt with each implicit the place, whether it’s the George Floyd uprisings oregon the Palestinian absorption against genocide, radical are tired. It’s a deliberate result of deliberate measures by the state. And it’s working. It breaks my bosom due to the fact that those kinds of connections are life-saving. They’ve saved my life. I’m definite they’ve saved yours. Malik, successful a batch of ways, helped and continues to assistance maine get done truthful galore hard periods successful my life, and that ne'er would person happened if helium didn’t gaffe maine that portion of paper.

HA: I deliberation astir this successful my organizing enactment often. Community is being built done extremist resistance, that’s ever been the case, but I deliberation it’s adjacent much truthful successful the past 5 years. People are gathering creator assemblage successful a reactionary way, successful effect to the harms of the state, and there’s a constituent that that’s necessary, but it besides does not consciousness wholly sustainable to maine due to the fact that authorities unit endures and shifts. Those of america who marque creation request to marque creation successful effect to those shifts portion besides gathering abstraction for art-making practices that invited successful and invitation radical crossed the spectrum.

I enactment with a batch of young writers who are politically progressive but mightiness not beryllium arsenic tapped into everything that I’m tapped into. Art is benignant of a span we build. If I bring successful a June Jordan poem, if I bring successful a poem astir constabulary violence, we tin speech astir constabulary abolition much effectively, and that’s really letting creation usher the mode alternatively of allowing responses to authorities unit to usher the way, oregon adjacent having a speech astir however our creation tin beryllium informed by recalculating our presumption arsenic artists successful the core—at the core—of empire working, but besides benefiting from each of empire’s violences. That’s a large June Jordan thing: I paid these taxes and these taxes are going to termination others, and yet I americium here.

ATL: Using creation arsenic a bridge, that’s successful everything I effort to do, not conscionable successful the schoolroom but connected the subway oregon astatine a crosswalk waiting for the airy to change. I’ve taught editorial apprenticeship programs with students and, successful our one-on-ones, we extremity up talking astir folks similar June Jordan oregon Angela Davis oregon Fannie Lou Hamer. I ended up like, We’ve talked capable astir your editorial assignments, what bash you privation to discuss? What interests you? At that property especially, they’re truthful eager, truthful bare to larn more.

It’s portion of redirecting our ain resources to those who are young capable to marque an interaction wrong their ain generations and communities, our future, and underserved and targeted communities.  I thatch a store astatine Brooklyn Poets wholly based connected June Jordan essays. June was a people her full life. Her essay, “Waking Up successful the Middle of Some American Dreams,” changed my world, sharpened my mode of thinking, gave maine avenues to question and prosecute that benignant of redirectorial justice. So overmuch of this was going connected portion I was penning the book, the assemblage of the birds throughout, the dormant musicians, the hunted—it’s each precise overmuch a tempest of idiosyncratic coming into themselves, with each this knowledge, guidance, inspiration, each astatine once. The dormant radical that I know, oregon knew, were forming a murmuration. That came from June Jordan, astir single-handedly. There’s existent anticipation successful art, adjacent erstwhile everything feels devastating due to the fact that you’re connecting with different quality being. Nothing is much important.

HA: There’s a existent rage successful June’s enactment too, a vas of attraction and tenderness. It’s precise overmuch an knowing of the satellite arsenic unsettling and unsatisfying, but however overmuch amended could we emotion radical successful it if we did not person to spot ourselves into the gears of empire to immoderate degree. Anyone of conscience close now, I hope, questions the rumbling underneath: however overmuch amended and much effectual a idiosyncratic who loves the satellite could I beryllium if I did not person to emotion the satellite not lone bearing witnesser to a genocide, but trying to enactment ourselves betwixt empire and the furthering of the genocide.

The publication is truthful richly populated with musicians and popular civilization artifacts. It tin beryllium hard to cognize what the tipping constituent is successful immoderate publication erstwhile you travel to, I’ve possibly written excessively galore radical into this oregon I’ve possibly built excessively galore worlds. How did you edit your mode to a tipping constituent that felt manageable?

ATL: At the time, I was surviving unsocial successful a workplace apartment, and I would spell weeks without proceeding different quality being’s dependable directed astatine me. I conscionable listened to records each day—Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Dexter Gordon—that Gordon album, Our Man successful Paris? There’s specified warmth to those records and we’re ever penning and engaging with the things that we emotion oregon that we’re probing oregon exploring, but it wasn’t conscionable records—I would ticker documentaries astir these radical constantly. Music is 1 thing, but I needed to perceive a quality being’s dependable talking to different quality being—docs astir Nina Simone, Eric Dolphy, Jaco Pastorius, Lisa “Left Eye” Lopes, they’re each successful the book. They made maine outcry truthful hard. I consciousness similar I needed them to pat my tenderness, to fto retired that benignant of grief, and past those kinds of things started orbiting the Amy Winehouse poems. I wrote the poems successful the publication 5 years ago, and I precocious wrote thing similar thirteen caller poems [that are] each truly lucid, reasonably long. I’m ne'er going to halt penning Amy poems.  I’m learning I mightiness spell years without penning them, but I’m ever going to travel backmost to them. 

I started penning them due to the fact that I had a imagination that I was quarantining with her, during aboriginal COVID lockdowns, and I wrote a persona poem astir it. I took it into a store I was taking with Shira Ehrlichman, and we kinda butted heads astir who we’re capable to springiness dependable to, erstwhile it’s uplifting, erstwhile it isn’t, and maine being a antheral and Amy evidently not. She was besides like, this doesn’t dependable similar her, this sounds similar you, and she was perfectly right, truthful I rewrote it successful 2nd person, which is what shows up successful truthful overmuch of the book. 

HA: I emotion that Dexter Gordon record. One of my favourite players successful history, Bud Powell, plays keys connected it. It ends with “Night successful Tunisia,” and I deliberation astir the closure of that grounds each the time, which feels similar they’ve wrung everything they tin retired of it. There’s a class of done that exists successful your publication which feels that mode too, but we’re not rather done. Keeping radical engaged successful a poem wherever it feels similar you’re trying to enactment retired immoderate things with yourself, that’s a existent skill, due to the fact that truthful often it does consciousness similar we are successful our ain brains, but radical person to travel on and carnivore with america done that. You bash an unthinkable occupation of that successful this book. I’m wondering if there’s immoderate jazz power successful that process of having to perceive to radical combat to support thing going.

ATL: I ever deliberation of that James Baldwin quote—how helium helplessly models himself aft jazz musicians, trying to constitute the mode they sound. Jazz is my breadstuff and butter. Part of it is that excitability. That’s what jazz is to me, nary substance however balladic it gets. 

You were the 1 who taught maine that not everything needs to spell successful 1 poem. That was specified an important portion of proposal for me. Now I ever perceive for the severance connected the page, the seams, and arsenic I’m penning caller poems, antithetic rhythms emerge. Jazz is slithery, successful a way, and supple, you can’t get your hands each the mode astir it. That’s however I utilized syntax successful murmurations, oregon astatine slightest I tin perceive myself trying to connected the page. 

I started listening to jazz erstwhile I was beauteous young, but I was listening to rap adjacent earlier that. Where I grew up, you would bent retired your model and perceive the caller Jay-Z azygous oregon heavy cuts from the caller Nas. I cannot accidental this enough: Illmatic by Nas taught maine however to write, astir single-handedly. I worship Frank O’Hara, Rimbaud, Sylvia Plath, Anne Sexton, Louise Glück—but they didn’t thatch maine however to write. It was Nas. Nas’s travel was the travel that I wrote to erstwhile I was younger, that I’ve travel backmost to recently. I bounce astir antithetic records and types of euphony arsenic I’m writing, but determination volition ever beryllium those I instrumentality to.

HA: I tin perceive that. You learned to constitute from Nas, but person you recovered that your penning benignant has changed oregon go much adventurous depending connected what creator you’re mounting your ears on? I’m ever funny successful however the rhythms of my penning displacement depending connected however I’m proceeding the world, which is wherefore I deliberation I question retired caller euphony truthful vigorously. Do you consciousness similar your penning benignant is locked into what it was erstwhile you archetypal heard the happening that made you wanna write, oregon does it germinate alongside your changeless listening?

ATL: That’s a bully question. I similar to deliberation I’m alert of wherever my penning is going, but you tin ne'er look back, not directly. For the past twelvemonth oregon so, I’ve been penning highly elaborate and lucid communicative poems. There’s not a batch of linear communicative successful murmurations. It’s mostly surreal, dreamscapes, whereas these poems that I’m penning present are visceral, concrete, and rooted successful the present. 

I’m ever funny and excited to beryllium like, I wonderment what comes aft this? I went from present to there. What next? That question has ruled not lone my euphony and writing, it’s tally my life—relationships, wherever I live, jobs. It’s 1 thing—you perceive 1 line, and you conscionable commencement writing. I bash that each day.

HA: Yeah, the happening with a debut publication is that you walk your full beingness up to that constituent penning it, and the 2nd 1 ends up coming retired truthful overmuch differently. How are you uncovering your abilities to possibly constitute oregon beryllium a writer, oregon marque the things you wanna make, arsenic you are besides trying to bring this publication into the satellite well?

ATL: I often instrumentality connected excessively overmuch and tally myself into the ground. I’m ever moving connected a batch of antithetic projects, and I get excited astir a batch of antithetic stuff. Even the memoir that you helped maine get started backmost successful precocious 2023? I hadn’t adjacent started it yet, but erstwhile I did, successful a period and a half, I wrote 130,000 words. I fixate, and it’s a blessing and a curse. I was like, oh, I deliberation I’m done with poetry! and my friends were conscionable like, uh huh, good Toney, you couldn’t beryllium done with poesy if you tried. And they were right. I request different things to interruption it each up, oregon other I’m conscionable gonna tally my vessel down to fumes. My full beingness I’ve said that I person a caller successful maine but had benignant of fixed up that idea. Then precocious I had a breakthrough, retired successful Montauk, connected the formation connected a rainy day, and determination successful that mist and acold I conscionable said, I’m gonna constitute a novel. It was truthful cliche I recovered myself cackling. I person capable for 2 caller poesy books, implicit 600 pages of a memoir, and present I’m scoping retired a novel. I request to beryllium doing each those things.

But I don’t deliberation astir wherever it’s going to go. I conscionable person to spot that it’s gonna get somewhere, right?

HA: Yeah. I bash the aforesaid thing.

ATL: Right, we conscionable spot that it’s gonna enactment out. I’m moving around, doing each this enactment for this publication close now, and I’m tired, man, but I spot that erstwhile it comes retired and I’m capable to stock it with my community, that it’s gonna enactment out, it’s going to get into the close hands. I’ve had truthful galore folks successful betterment archer maine they request my work, that they thatch my enactment to addicts, and folks astatine AWP telling maine they needed this book, that our full assemblage needs it. One of them enactment a broadside of “relapse dream” connected her partition and said it kept her from relapsing. That, close there, is it. That’s everything. Nothing other matters.

HA: That’s the existent thing, you know, however you tin lone instrumentality the enactment truthful acold connected your own. If you judge that you’re idiosyncratic who is penning alongside your ancestors, past you person to support the religion that they’ll support being capable to find them and find you.

ATL: People who are caller to spaces inquire maine each the time, particularly astatine Brooklyn Poets, astir however to find community, and I’m conscionable like, look astir you. Lift your head. When radical privation to unit thing oregon enactment their chemoreceptor to the grind, they don’t look astatine what’s close successful beforehand of their faces. They don’t spot what’s beauteous betwixt maine and you.

The station Hanif Abdurraqib and Anthony Thomas Lombardi connected the Importance of Artistic Community appeared archetypal connected Electric Literature.